Couch Talk 128 (Play)
Guests: Dean Jones
Host: Subash Jayaraman
Subash Jayaraman (SJ)– Hello and welcome to Couch Talk. Today’s guest is former Victorian and Australian batsman Dean Jones. He talks about his growth as a batsman after his legendary innings in the Madras Tied Test, Allan Border’s role in Australian resurgence, facing up to West Indian fast bowlers, Michael Clarke’s captaincy, Indian cricket league amongst other things.
Hi Deano, How are you mate?
Dean Jones (DJ)– Very good, mate. How are things?
SJ– Alright. Welcome to the show.
Everyone knows about your marathon innings in the heat of Chepauk in the tied Test. You were physically so ill by the end of it, you were dehydrated, vomiting, urinating and taken to the hospital right away. What did the innings do to you mentally, as a batsman and as an athlete?
DJ– Firstly, it put me on the map internationally. People call it courageous and all sorts of things. i never thought that. Courageous was facing the four West Indians at a green pitch in Trinidad. (Malcolm) Marshall, (Joel) Garner, (Andy) Roberts and (Michael) Holding. That is what is courageous. When you play against great spinners as we did in that heat, it was about having a mental toughness, having a discipline to play against the spinners. I mean, the heat, we didn’t know of it in Australia. We knew that when we are in India, when we drink water, we got to be careful, cover up. i didn’t do those things. i was nervous, it was my first Test match. It took me some time to comprehend really what I did at the end of it. i have always thought that if you are playing for your country, and you have to dive in the middle of the pitch because the circumstances wanted that, so be it. i have always thought that you got to put your heart and soul in everything for the emblem that you wear on your head, on the baggy green caps.
It was a big thing for me, it was a big thing for the Australian cricket because that was the rebirth of the Australian renaissance under Alan Border. We end up winning the world cup. It was a massive, important tour for all of us.
SJ– How was it personally for you, as a batsman, because you had faced a very hard, unbelievably hot temperatures, and you had no idea what you were doing? Basically, you were just playing from memory. You still went through with it. What does it do to you as a batsman going forward in the rest of the career?
DJ– It was my Mt. Everest. I call it that because there comes a moment in your time when you have to look at your opposition and look at yourself – your biggest, worst enemy. If you are good enough at Test level to compete, you can hurt the opposition. If you are, then you can be a good player. Fortunately for me, it was my third Test match. I have spoken to Matthew Hayden, he also got 208 on the same ground a few years later, maybe in 2000. He also called it his Mt. Everest. He told me that he firmly believed within that he felt ‘I’m good enough to compete at this level and do well.’ This game is played between the years. If you firmly believe in yourself, that you are good enough to play well, then you are away. For me, after that Test, I went straight to the tour where I played my first ever Ashes series, I nearly scored 600 runs in a losing Ashes series. All of a sudden, I started to believe that I am good enough. The biggest problem for me was that when it is 36-37 degrees, my body started saying “I don’t want to do this again.” That is what I did in Madras. My body hated it for it. I still have problems, to this day, when I am commentating or playing golf in temperatures above 37-38. My body starts to go through shakes, and it is a problem.
SJ– But, when you are playing cricket for Australia or Victoria and the temperature rises more than what it did in Madras, then it becomes a game of mind over matter. You knew you were feeling the shakes, but you still had to put that behind you and focus on what you had to do as a batsman, right?
DJ– Yes, at the same time you say that you have to keep it simple. Let’s look for ball release. I think that is why I have been fortunate to make a lot of big scores in my time playing first class cricket, I made a double [hundred] against the West Indies. I can concentrate over long periods of time. how do you do that? You have to have an unbelievable fitness. More importantly, you have to know when you have to switch on and switch off. If you are about to make a 200, if you are not a Sehwag or someone else of that kind, it takes you 7 hours or so. That is unbelievably difficult and tough. You have to know how to switch on and off in a hurry. I learnt that at a young age. I was able to know that when the ball is coming out of his hand, switch on; let’s do this. That is basically how it is. It is a skill, a mindset, something that I fortunately learnt at a young age.
SJ– As you said, your Mt. Everest came very early in your career. Did your Australian teammates look at you in a different light after that innings, putting your whole life on the line for Australia? Did AB think any different of you, did he say anything in private? He taunted you saying that he would send a Queenslander in if the Victorian can’t.
DJ– It is no doubt that it put me on the map, it is no doubt that it got me respect. Why is it that we in the media and cricket fans, why do we put so much emphasis on making the first 100? Or when you get a 5 wicket haul? We do that, and I don’t like it. i still rate my 48 against the WI on a green pitch on my debut in 1984 against Marshall and Garner and Holding and those boys – that is still my best ever knock. Yet, people say “You only made 48.” Yes, and on a really difficult deck, when on most other times I would have nicked off and made 1 or 3. The stupid emphasis! I will never forget, when I got the 100, I don’t know why, I don’t know what the big deal is, I don’t know why I was so nervous in the 90s. I was. When I got out, I thought that was so bloody stupid. I was thinking why I was so. Was it in my DNA? Was it how I was as a kid, how my dad brought me up? i am thinking, there is still 100, a biggie to be had. I was in my third Test match and thinking stuff like that is ridiculous. That is the way I am made, the way I am put together.
SJ– But, when you make a 48, compared to a 200, even though the 48 was on a more difficult deck, the 200 whether the deck was easy or difficult, you must have had to physically and mentally endure to get there, right? Perhaps that is why they make an emphasis on getting the big scores?
DJ– I look at the times where I made 160 or 150. I remember I made 130 against England, I nearly pulled the ribs apart when I got out because it was ridiculous for me to get out at that time. There were other times when you go out to bat and the bat feels like a 7-iron in your hands and you don’t feel comfortable at all. Some way, you punch out a 40 or 50 and those really are the good days because most other times, you would have nicked off early and made just 5 or 6. So, you got to in the first half hour when you get out, or the first 15 minutes – it is when you have to have your own time to really ask the right question to get the right answers. How did I get out? Why did I get out? How did I come about it? Am I happy with my knock? Where can I get better? Those are the things that you should ask yourself. A lot of cricketers today, the batsmen in particular, rely on their coach to come forward and tell them that they have to do this and that. You have to work it out yourself. If you don’t work it out yourself, and you want other people teling you, you are not going to make it.
SJ– I want to go back to that team that you played in. That was led by AB, it was in rebuilding mode. It was trying to re-establish the Aussie way of playing cricket. Currently, if you look at Michael Clarke, after the retirement of Shane Warne, Glenn McGrath, Adam Gilchrist and all the other greats of the game… How would you compare how AB tried to play cricket and how he wanted his team to play cricket against how Michael Clarke is doing it?
DJ– AB was the godfather of Australian cricket. We have had great captains in Steve Waugh and Ricky Ponting and Mark Taylor, but it was Allan Border who put it all together for us. i think that tied Test series, if you look at the first Test in Madras, India had 500+ Test matches in the team when we only had 140, and AB had 80 Tests himself. He basically taught us to play cricket the right way, got us to prepare properly, bring some pride back to the baggy green. He literally pulled it out of the mud. We were in the mud because we lost a lot of players to the South African rebel tour, they took the blood money. At that time, AB didn’t want to captain the team. Then, Bob Simpson took over and they formed a great relationship and partnership, we were led properly and worked hard on the fitness and worked hard on our defensive skills. All of a sudden we started to think we could do it. Finally, because of the success and how much we loved India and particularly being Madras since it put us on the map, we made sure in preparations for the 1987 world cup, we practiced 2 – 3.5 weeks before the first match in the heat, to get ourselves ready for the Indian tour of the world cup in ’87, and the rest is history. We were ranked the worst in the competition and we ended up winning it.
AB’s captaincy will always stand to me – we have had some wonderful captains – but he has been the best by miles.
SJ– How do you see Michael Clarke and his captaincy and how he is trying to rebuild this new Australian team?
DJ– Michael Clarke has got great influence from Shane Warne and is prepared to lose a match to win a match. He has to understand his players’ personalities, what they can do and what they can’t. I think he fully understands that. He has to make some hard runs himself. He has to get the full respect of the players, mix with them and he has done that. He has completely changed his life. He is married and settled. He is prepared to be aggressive and take the game by the scruff of the neck and make it turn the way he wants it to turn, rather than meander along. The influence of Shane Warne and there is a a little bit of Ian Chappell in the way he goes about things. It’s making him a quality captain in his own right. He says the right things to the media, he makes enough runs, as we all know. The players actually look at him and say “Where is this game going?” and he always seems to have an answer. He always looks like, “Don’t worry, I am going to bowl so and so to him, going to do that, and this is why we need the short mid wicket, and the game will change. OK. Off we go.” That is what you want your leaders to have. You don’t want your leaders not to have answers. They might be wrong ones, but at least you go with some positive direction.
SJ– You mentioned Clarke being willing to lose the game to win the game. Was AB, as tough as he was trying to bring the pride back to the baggy green, was he of that sort too – willing to lose a game to win the game?
DJ– No, he wasn’t. He definitely wasn’t, particularly at the start of the career, he was more of a defensive leader. He was trying to save the game first before trying to win it. Then he started to realise that we had some good batsmen. There used to be a stage when, if AB was out early we were all out for 200. Then he started to trust the ones like Marsh and Boon and Taylor and Steve Waugh came along, and there was myself for a while. Later on, he had Damien Martyn and Ricky Ponting coming through. At that time, AB started to evolve with the team. That was when Bobby Simpson, what he didn’t do – didn’t evolve a team and trust the guy’s knowledge or feelings to where the game should be, or how we should be playing.
AB was very good at man-management in that regard. The no.1 thing about him was that he wanted to be loved. And he was loved because the barrage of bouncers he got from the West Indies and the hardship he had as a captain and the fact that he always seemed to mix with the players – he was always there for us. He went through the thick and thin. When the things started to go well, he didn’t want to take the plaudits, he let the players do that. There is a lot we can learn from that.
SJ– You have already brought up the WI bowlers a few times, and you had mentioned in one of the interviews that you were scared to face the WI fast bowlers earlier in the career. Was it because you were afraid of failure or the pace at which they were coming at you?
DJ– When you face a guy at a 150 kph, I am telling you, you are awake. You are awake and all your senses are glowing. This is the point when, I remember speaking to Imran Khan about it, if you want to conquer the world you have got to have more than 3 fast bowlers who bowl over 150 kph. And the interesting thing why that is, is that you can have the best spinner in the world – and Sri Lanka had that with Murali(tharan) at the end of his career but weren’t the no.1 in the world. It has worked out that we believe that any bowler that bowls…..the first mistake that a batsman makes is the length. If you make a mistake, you go forward to a ball that is short, you are in trouble, or you go back to a ball that has pitched up to you, you are in trouble. When a fast bowler bowls over 140 kph and you make a mistake on length, only 3 things can happen – you miss it, you are out or you are killed. When you bowl over 140 kph, you don’t have any luxury of time to kick the ball away or drop your hand if you get done in on length. If you bowl less than 140 kph, you still have time to manipulate your body – drop your hands or do something to keep that ball out. You have time. you don’t have time after 140 kph. That is why Australia, particularly now, and always, have unique guys bowling at over 140 kph to get through 7-8-9-10-jack batsmen to get through them, whereas the best spin bowler in the world doesn’t do that. That is why speed will always be the winner if you want to be the no.1 team in the world. That is why (Peter) Siddle was left out in the last few games for Australia in the recent Test series, because they are always making sure that the players are keeping the speed up over 140 kph.
SJ– Your Test career coincided with the last decade of WI dominance. What are your memories of playing against them in Australia as well as in the Caribbean?
DJ– It was different in Australia because it bounced a lot. When you play against these guys you have to be very supple in the top half of your body. You got to know when to leave and duck and on days 4 and 5, if it goes that far, is difficult. When you face the Pakistanis like Wasim (Akram) and Waqar (Younis) and Imran Khan, your bottom half has to be very good because they are bowling Yorkers and completely good with the reverse swing. It is a different reaction and timing. When you are facing the WI, a) it was a lot of fun, but every second Test series seemed to be against the WI. I think we wanted time to breathe playing against the Zimbabweans or the Sri Lankans or Bangladesh or even England. [WI tours] used to make money for the Australian cricket board and we brought them home and every second year they were there. It was fun. But, I have been blessed and fortunate to play against the greatest players that God put bread into in my era.
In my era, I have faced bowlers like Marshall, Holding, Garner, Roberts, Ambrose, Walsh, Imran, Waqar, Wasim, Kapil Dev, Allan Donald, MacMillan and let’s not forget Richard Hadlee, Morrison, Chatfield and then you can go through the spinners. I forgot Ian Botham. I faced all of them to go through that time. There were a lot of guys in my era. I call them dinosaurs now. They all bowled over 150 clicks, a lot of them. Only two guys now can bowl at 150 clicks now. Maybe two. Dale Steyn when he is on heat, and Mitchell Johnson. Nobody else goes over 150 now. In my time, dinosaurs were everywhere. They are no longer there now.
SJ– What do you think is the reason behind that? Is it over coaching?
DJ– I think it is just bloody hard work. The sexiness has gone out it, a little bit I think. And maybe there are too many games. You look at the talent Johnson has, and you say to him that you need him to play well in England, you need to play well against India in series coming up and then in the world cup. The other games, we can take you back off for rest because we know you can’t keep your speeds up. Being a fast bowler bowling at 150 kph, 15 times your body weight goes through your hip, knee and your left ankle. You do that competitively and bowl 20 overs a day or 120 times, with holes in the pitch etc. It is just bloody hard work. It is funny now, I see a lot of the kids are starting to say “How fast does Mitchell bowl!!” they haven’t seen the other generation. With all respect to Brett Lee, he was quick, but he never knocked that many blokes over. He got 300 Test wickets but he never smashed any one up. But Mitchell Johnson smashed all these people up. He gives batsmen great heads. He stops batsmen from sleeping over. He has got this meanness about him that gets the batsmen thinking that he will rip the head off and eat your body if he has to. He is that type of a bowler. He is not that kind of a guy, but in the middle when he walks out of that line, he is ready to kill you.
We have lost that. Thommo had that, Lillee had that, Garner and Marshall and those guys had that. Ambrose had it. The other guys have maybe thought that they don’t want to bowl this quick. Maybe the pitches now is the same as all the pitches around the world now, which is sad. Why do we love Tennis? It is because there is hard court here in Australia and USA, there is clay in France and grass in Wimbledon. You are supplying all these kinds of different tennis players, which is cool. Now, with all these pitches with the same pace all the time, you are producing the same type of players – the batsmen who get on the front foot all the time. You don’t get on the front foot on these marble type pitches, you are not getting on the front foot at all. You look at all these guys today – Shane Watson – his first movement? Front foot down the pitch. Watching that kind of thing can be a little bit boring.
SJ– I want to talk a bit about your ODI career as well. You were acclaimed as one of the best ODI players to have every played the game. You completely changed the way the game was played. I want to know about your approach when Australia was batting first, vs when you were chasing. What was your thinking process when you put on your pads and were walking on to the field?
DJ– You got to know your game, your limitations, what you can do, what you can’t, no.1 . You can’t ask a helicopter to go over a wall when it can’t. We all know that. We are aware of what we can do. i watched (Vivian) Richards, the way he pulverised attacks and I looked at the street cunning Javed Miandad and how he went about running between the wickets. I saw him make 100 vs Victoria for Pakistan. He made a 100 off 75 balls and only hit 3 boundaries. It was about the placement of balls and how the inner circle was placed. I also thought that it was time for ODIs to…to show off a bit, let’s try and do a couple of different things. i knew I tried to get into their face from early in. I tried to hit 4s big time early in the first 15 overs and then place the ball after the 15th to the 40th over, looking for 1s and 2s, running and putting the pressure on the field. And then have the power to go for the 4s and 6s in the last 10 overs.
I loved the fact that it worked on every facet of your game. 50 over cricket, not T20. I always felt that – I know this will shock a few people – ODI cricket was harder to play than Test cricket because One day cricket will show up your weakness quicker than Test cricket. If you cant throw over 50 meters, you will be sorted out. If you can’t bowl a ball in the blockhole under pressure, you are going to be sorted out. If you can’t swing the ball in the first 15 overs, you are going to be sorted out. If you don’t have the power to hit over the top particularly early in the innings, and have the others believe that you can hit Ambrose over the top of his head, you are going to get sorted out. If you have any weakness in your game, it will come out faster on One Day cricket than in Tests.
How did you go about constructing an ODI innings? I have heard form Virat Kohli in press conferences that when he walks in, he looks at the scoreboard, looks at the situation, he makes the calculations of what the required rates are, what he needs to do for the first few overs etc.
DJ– It is just one ball at a time for me, I was like that. I got into a situation where i liked to look at average winning totals and understand it. if it was 3/70, and I know that for the MCG the average winning total is 233, I’m thinking that I don’t have to play out of my skin to get past that total in the 1st innings. Probably the first one can take the overs out, take a run a ball, go till you need 60 runs in 40 balls left. That is cool, because then I will hit 4 boundaries and maybe one six, and that brings it back to run-a-ball situation. Not to panic. Scoreboard watching can get you in a lot of trouble, basically. To pick on what bowlers, what is his weakness? Maybe Ambrose is too hard to get away, OK I will keep him quiet and go after the other boys. You have to know which guys to go against. It is like being a cheetah or a lion, you have to pick the weak one in the pack and go after him.
Here is an interesting thought, Allan Border allowed me to do that. He allowed me to experiment. I was the first guy to wear sunglasses. I was the first player to run between the wickets hard and all that kind of stuff. I was allowed to experiment, to push the boundaries of the game. Now, it is just ridiculous how far they have gone with it, which is really good. The bats are completely different. When I first started in 1988, there were 4 bouncers an over, and there were no leg side wides. In world cup you are allowed to have 7 players on the leg side for an off spinner. You talk about how much things change!
I had a bit of a twitter fun with KP last night [at the time of recording]. He says we don’t need night cricket. He is saying that we need to have less matches, not to change them. He says, “You might as well change all the stats and everything for night cricket”. Hang on, you rate yourself an ODI player, let’s talk about how the game changed since I was a player. There were 2 white balls when I was batting, 4 bouncers, 7 guys on the leg side. There were big grounds. What do you want me to do? And you look at my numbers and people say that these are not bad numbers compared to today’s players. If I was playing today, my numbers would have been a bit different. The game has to evolve and keep changing. I like to believe I started that, but now the guys have pushed it to the nth degree. It is just fabulous.
SJ– You just mentioned that you were one of the early proponents of the art of trying to run between the wickets, trying to push it, and push it. but now, you have smaller grounds and bigger bats and there are more power plays. Do you see that art of running between the wickets diminishing these days, especially in the ODIs these days?
DJ– Yes. That is sad. That is the way it is. It is almost getting to a point where some of the grounds are getting obsolete. I’m on the Board of Spartan Cricket, for example. We look at Chris Gayle, and MS Dhoni and Clarke. We organize gears and I help him design the bats. Not this year in but the last, Chris Gayle hit people in the head in the crowd. There were broken cheekbones and noses on kids and all that kind of stuffs. The grounds are becoming obsolete because of the bats. There are no caught and bowled today, because of the reaction time – it is so difficult to catch it. Plus, they are playing differently today than they did earlier. They are stronger, they understand, they hit the ball further. They are very good in what they are doing. I love the way they are playing.
We also have to make sure that it is an even battle field for the bowlers as well. How far are we going to push these bats now? I know they are working on the handles now, to improve lengths and how they hit the ball through impact. The ball hasn’t changed that much at all. That needs to change as well because cork is not very good inside cricket balls and needs something else to hold the impression of the ball, instead of being soft. We have to find a ball that lasts through dew problems and stuffs like that. There is still a long way to go. We have to be a little bit careful with some of these grounds which are, particularly in England, too small. These bats are just using it so far.
SJ– Early on in the conversation you talked about Bobby Simpson. I want to bring that topic up – what was the effect of having him as Australia’s coach? And the way cricket has been played. His methods of dealing with you guys and how cricket should be played was very revolutionary, and you had Bob Woolmer. Things have gone so far ahead where every team has a team analyst breaking down every aspect of the game. What is your take on that?
DJ– I don’t think you have coach now for your country. You have people who have good man management skills. You don’t have a chance to work on a player in the nets that much. Batting or bowling coaches do that now. You have a real good coaching academy to run those things. Now, a lot of the guys can be good coaches. It is really man management, working out when is the best time to…make sure when Mitchell Johnson should make a comeback and all that type of stuff. It is not talking about the technique of how to bowl or swing a ball. That is what Bob Simpson did. The man management skills, that is where I think was his weakness was and ended up getting in the neck. At that time, we were learning how to play the game when Woolmer took over. We had a very young team. We didn’t have an academy at that time, and the academies started in the 1990s. We were good to go after that. We had good players coming through. Simmo’s law was perfect at that time, but now, your head coach is manager of the team. He will sit back and work out the tactic and strategies and work out what to do, not necessarily working on a player’s technique.
SJ– Someone like John Buchanan….
DJ– John Buchanan was the first of the modern day manager coaches of today. He brought in the computers, he understood the psycho-analysts and assistant technical coaches. He was the first to do that.
SJ– You were also involved with the ICL, the first T20 franchise based tournament in the world as the operations manager. What are your thoughts on how the BCCI decided the handle the issues with ICL and the players, and eventually how the ICL folded up?
DJ– Basically, Subhash Chandra, who is the owner of Zee TV asked me to come up with a bid for the TV rights, he never got it, for the international rights in India. He asked myself and the other guy a TV executive called Ajay Kapoor, and we basically sat in my room in Oberoi – I still have the butcher paper to prove it – we just worked out, he wanted to have a tournament and I came up with the idea of the Indian Cricket League, basically. We wanted to have 8 teams and 25 players per team where international players can play, only 4 of them can play. we did that. India didn’t like T20 cricket at that time. Then all of a sudden, which was great for us, nobody wanted to go down to the world cup in 2007 to South Africa. (Saurav) Ganguly said no, (Rahul) Dravid said no, (Sachin) Tendulkar said no. Dhoni is going to have to captain and then beating Pakistan, of all teams, in the final of the tournament. All of a sudden, T20 cricket is alive because the Indians are world champions of this. Then, Lalit Modi shut us down and quickly made the IPL and the rest is history. But, we did breathe some fire through that. The whole idea was for the betterment of Indian cricket. Yes, we wanted to hell out the younger players coming through. And yes, it was entertainment, television form. That is why Mr. Chandra wanted it at the time. It forced BCCI’s hand on the game. India and the BCCI hated the ODI cricket until they won the 1983 world cup and all of a sudden they played more ODI games than anyone else. Maybe, there should be a world Test championship and let India win it and maybe they will start playing more Test cricket. I don’t know. I was saying that tongue in cheek. But maybe that is how it is. How we are going to look after Test cricket, I don’t know.
I think ICL served its purpose. There are some guys now in the IPL and making a living out of it. i am happy for them.
SJ– Any raw feelings at all on how ICL was marginalised?
DJ– I that those feelings come from Zee Networks. They wished it went on, because basically it was their idea and they would have made it bigger and better.. But, I am happy. It’s a billion dollar baby, and they loved doing something along with me and I had a great team at the ICL.
SJ– Do you think it cost you a spot on the Cricket Victoria board?
DJ– I was never on the board, anyway.
SJ – That’s what I mean..
DJ – You have to be there for 12 months to be on the board. I was never there. it has hurt me in relationship to some commentary gigs around the world at that time. that’s all.
SJ– Just a couple of questions, Deano. You talked about commentary gigs. Plenty of listeners sent in this question regarding that very unfortunate comment that you made, which was broadcast on air, on Hashim Amla. You have talked about this earlier in other interviews but people want to know what led you to even say it, and how did you handle the fall out?
DJ– I am not going over old ground. It was ugly, and as people know me very well, I am certainly not a racist and I copped a beating over it from certain people in certain parts of the world. i made a silly mistake and I paid for it. I apologized to Hashim and his father and they accepted it 100% and we are fine.
SJ– Yes, you mentioned that you spoke to Hashim 3 times after that.
DJ– Yes. He was very kind in doing it. it also led me to understand that it is a privileged position to be a commentator and a lot of people want to do that and I had that job, It was a silly comment made, I’m not going to go on about it. What made me even say it might make it into a book one day, but it was just stupid and I thought we were off air. That doesn’t even make for an excuse there. It was just stupid.
SJ– Fair enough.
Lastly, what is keeping Professor Deano busy these days?
DJ– I still work with NDTV, I do a lot of commentary gigs at radio at home. I write for the Fairfax Network. I coach. I own an events management company. So, I am pretty busy. I am married and have two beautiful girls and am helping them get through their stages from high school to universities, they are at that time now. It is a lot on.
SJ– Fantastic, Deano! It was an absolutely pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much for giving me all this time.
DJ– Thanks again! Cheers!
SJ– Cheers mate! Bye!
Episode transcribed by: Bharathram Pattabiraman